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Unread 04-23-2010, 12:28 AM
MisterP's Avatar
MisterP MisterP is offline
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Geoje
Posts: 61
I propose a motion to quit this thread! all in favor, say nothing, all opposed keep posting!
Unread 04-23-2010, 05:51 AM
Lostontherocks's Avatar
Lostontherocks Lostontherocks is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kunsan, Korea
Posts: 28
While hashing back at someone that seems just content to slam another seems a waste of time, I only need to say two things.

Made it pretty clear that I didn't want to offend koreans, just that there is a group you will always offend.

Don't appreciate seeing you lie about me keeping you up before as the ONLY two times we have been at the same crag was last march (me asleep before majority of group) and this MG (not even sure you were there), I was at the hotel and didn't participate in the partying at all and rarely do. And those koreans that piss, spilled etc...on my tent, were the esteemed korean climbers you are talking about, too drunk to see straight or know what they were doing, one I saved from walking right off that 12 foot ledge at yeonsgo after he almost stumbled right off it. I've see far worse drunken behavior from koreans than I ever have from foreigners.

And last, what I said about koreans, was told to me BY koreans, get involved in the culture? Korean Climbers, Kiteboarders, teaching english to ROKAF, Visiting every tunneled cave in SK with my Gunsan University Friends, spending over 300 hours helping side by side helping them clean up the oil spill, studying under two korean hapkido masters, going with Master Oh-Man Rok to dig up ginseng in the mountains for his medicine wine, temple stays...etc

man with respect, don't randomly say things when you have no clue what you are talking about.

seriously man, unnecessary.

agree with Tim, when the personal hashing starts, threads need to be closed.
Unread 04-23-2010, 10:11 AM
willpower willpower is offline
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sokcho
Posts: 121
Its nothing personal Sean, but yeah at Yeongso you kept me up sunshine, and the family next to me too. Lying out in my sleeping bag I could hear your voice above them all, it was 12.30 pm. Don't worry, I've got the rest of my life to sleep...

What really irks me is seemingly the justification that you can party at any crag, anywhere, with as many people as you like based on your precepts and past experiences.

Sorry darling, but it doesn't take a sociologist to work out thats not really going to win KOTR any more respect. Its bigoted and at best childish. I don't care how much ginseng you've dug up it doesn't make mal aligning Korean culture, (and yes, go re-read your original post) with sweeping generalizations and airy fairy anecdotes okay.

If someone tells you to be quiet on a bus be quiet. This is Korea, and when you live in a confucian nation running around high-fiving and hollering with reckless abandon wont win friends. The japanese take it a step further, with a stasi like tolerance of mobile phone use on public transport. Living in close confines it just goes to make life a little easier for everyone.

Rest assured its not personal, I'll happily belay you at the crag any day or share my floor with you but whilst many of the Kotr stinky dirt bags will keep schtum when presented with mildly skewed cultural undertones, I'm not too fussed about being nice.

How far do you let it go, I've wrestled a lit firework from the hands of a foreigner who'd just passed out. Not cool. We need to keep tabs on our own behavior, if somebody is being a d**k its your responsibility to tell them preferably before they do any do anything stupid...

Sean, if you want to share a quiet beer some time, the first cass is on me, but close the thread? No this forum is for open debate and you've got to man up and explain to your bad grammar and points of view based on something more than shallow experience.



Last edited by willpower : 04-23-2010 at 10:33 AM.
Unread 04-23-2010, 04:10 PM
TLayne TLayne is offline
Jiri Jammer
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Near Konkuk univ.
Posts: 90
I didnt go to the m&g but from the pictures posted, I'll make sure not to miss it next time. Heres my opinion on the subject and this site in general.

Out of the 70+ people, we got what? Two complainers? 3 counting the mystery man. That should tell you something.

You wont have much luck trying to control adults. Look what happened in the 1600's when the brits tried pulling that crap. Your perfect view on what you think is acceptable behavior isnt going to be the same all the way around the table. People have different pasts. I grew up camping every weekend as a kid around people who partied. Others might have not grown up around alcohol so that to them might seem wrong. When I was a kid I lit more fireworks than I can remember. To someone else from another upbringing that might seem dangerous or stupid.

Point is, if it isnt illegal and the local people are suppling the entertainment (booze, fireworks, firewood, fire pits, camping space) then youre going to be **** out of luck with convincing people to follow your set of rules. We are not in a nanny state like many of our countries back home. People here like to be able to be grownups. If that means sacrificing sleep then thats the price you pay for being here. The same people complaining here would be the same ones calling the cops for noise back home. Guaranteed! there's always going to be one person in the group that trys and put their beliefs on everyone else. Unless you hold some kind of power that threatens people to act the way you want them to, nobodies gonna listen.

Seems like half the posts on KOTR nowadays are like this. Dont litter. Be quiet. Learn Korean. Smile. Wave. Save the whales. Do this do that. Be friendly. And it all comes from a very small % of the members. If someone is a slob and leaves their trash on the ground after 20+ years on this planet because no one ever taught them how to clean up after themselves then that sucks. If someone parties louder than you, too ******* bad. If someone doesnt feel like being nice, oh well. What can you do about it! You can pick up the trash, you can avoid large, loud gatherings, you can find different friends. Its very hard to change an adults habits.

Maybe there ought to be two m&gs. One with a set of rules. One with a curfew and no loud speaking of the english language. no booze after 10 and no noisy and dangerous fireworks! no unnessesary laughter (soft gigglings ok), NO singing! and a 9 oclock lights out. Hell, Will could get a little blue helmet and enforce the law.

Now I didnt say one thing about koreans or the culture. That isn't the problem. A few people here feel like they need to try to protect koreans from us. You dont need to treat koreans like they are anymore special or different than anyone else. Its insulting to them and it makes you look like you feel guilty for being in their presents.There are a lot of koreans in the us, canada, australia, ect. and I would never expect them to kiss my *** just for being there.

Edit: This is a great site. I just wanted to give ya'll my take on the matter. Thats all.

Last edited by TLayne : 04-23-2010 at 05:08 PM.
Unread 04-23-2010, 06:38 PM
bhylenski bhylenski is offline
Currently a "Gyeongsonian"
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Gyeongsan (Daegu)
Posts: 150
Opinions aside. Let's round this off with a few suggestions for the next M&G:

1. Let's give some heads up to all of our local clubs...or all of your "korean friends," on where this merry band is heading.

2. Let's move the latenight partying to a local minbak or even simply a few campsites away from those sleeping, who might actually be attending because they like to climb on Sunday.

3. Maybe throw in an "Initiative" or something to do for those who climb hard, party harder and wake up the next morning looking for a whole to dig!

Thanks to all those that chimed in...Will thanks for making me laugh my arse off today, reading your posts!

Cheers to all those opinionated folks, who make KOTR forums both entertaining and grammatically correct! HAHA!
Unread 04-23-2010, 07:38 PM
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shanja shanja is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Daejeon
Posts: 1,386
Like Bryan et. al. said, let's try and learn from this and see if we can't use these reflections to our own advantages. I'm certainly not saying we should stop the partying PERIOD (no-one is so drop that overly wounded baby bulldust and "man-up"). I like the partying part too! I was not a prude or wuss (as some here seem to think you are unless you stay up til dawn 'earning party street cred' - no offence intended Tim, just using your apt qoute). That's not the freakin issue, so get your heads around the fact that what people are doing is looking at how we CAN party on without it causing US problems down the road or UNNECESSARILY annoying other individuals. That's what we need to think about, and maybe there are no perfect solutions, but having a cheap shot at those who were concerned by certain events (which we said were rare and not representative of the whole weekend) is just plain juvenile and divisive.
I don't see any reason why anyone here should be made to feel guilty about being concerned for how the Korean community migfht percieve us/ our actions. WAKE UP! We are guests in their country, we are de facto ambssadors whether we like it or not. That stuff that went on was fine and good natured fun, UNTIL some drunken cowards (no names coz I don't want this to be personal and I believe they feel more than adequately sorry for that slip up in what are otherwise stirling characters - honest opinion here) decided making fun of a Korean dude was cool. So tough when you are surrounded by 50 drunken mates...yeah, and the people defending that behaviour here are the same ones bitching about Koreans behaviour (so it's bad when they do stuff like that, but cool and funny when you do???WTF!??)
Wonder if you guys would have the nerve to say that stuff face to face with our KOREAN KOTR membes? Dong-il, Sunny, Kyung-Ah, Sang-in, Hyo-hon etc? Moreover, as some of us are not just blow-ins here for a year and then off elsewhere, this IS OUR home too. We have invested time and effort in becoming part of the community and LIKE it - we don't insist Korea change to suit us at our worst - even though yeah, Koreans are understanding and forgiving - it's totally not treating them like babies to say we shouldn't be taking their hospitality for granted or feel we are immune from censure.
If you think Korea is such a bad place, feel free to take your macho "I never need to apologize for anything, I'm a wild man individual party machine" attitude back home asap.
We all make mistakes and we all F## up...I do and I'll do it again. A decent person can at least admit his/ her mistakes and then move on, hopefully accepting some positive criticisms or suggestions.
quem deus perdere vult, primus dementat
Unread 04-24-2010, 03:00 PM
TLayne TLayne is offline
Jiri Jammer
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Near Konkuk univ.
Posts: 90
[quote=shanja]yeah, and the people defending that behaviour here are the same ones bitching about Koreans behaviour (so it's bad when they do stuff like that, but cool and funny when you do???WTF!??)

I'm neither defending nor supporting the behavior at the m&g. I wasnt there so I dont know the situations that led up to the events. I will say this. I have squared off with more koreans then I can count. Whether it's exchanging f*ck yous driving in traffic, throwing down on the subway, drunk kicking my dog. You name it. I try and be a happy person but everyone knows that isnt always possible. The way we all handle confrontations is different. If I were the guy who got into it at the party I wouldnt feel guilty or ashamed. Although given the right circumstance, I wouldnt have been anything but nice to the guy. If he was just trying to get some peace and quiet for his family I would have said sorry and good luck with your sleep, then try to keep it down. NOW if there were other parties going on around me who were just as loud or louder, I would have looked at him with a little less sympathy. If that was the case, AND the guy just wouldnt shut up about OUR noise, i'd have stopped caring completely and continued to party. If he still kept it up I could see myself talkin smack. I cant speculate, I wasnt there. I do believe 95% of the time people walk around with good intentions. Sometimes with the language barrier here its easy to forget.So before getting pissed off I try and remember that.

Lastly, since when did it start NOT being ok for a man to be macho? Goddamnit If a guy wants to act feminine you dont see me up in arms. If a girl wants to act butch its sad, but I keep my mouth shut about it. Whats the problem with a couple guys getting in an argument? Thats normal. I see the concern with being a good ambassador and all but lets not get get carried away. You gotta draw the line somewhere. If you think that because everyone doesnt resemble a church boy choir, it might ruin the way koreans look at you, then thats your problem. In the end you will determine how you are treated and looked at. It doesnt hurt to give good advise here on what YOU think is proper behavior in korea but remember, thats just your opinion. Dont get butt hurt and point fingers if people dont care about it.

This is just my opinion. I feel people are trying to be the white knight all to often and they are getting carried away. Relax. Stop worrying about the things you cant control. You people make the whole foreigner / korean thing into such a big deal. Until reading half the threads here I didnt even think about this kinda crap.
Unread 04-26-2010, 03:24 AM
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Eric Eric is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Owen Sound, Ontario
Posts: 680
I've read the entire thread and I appreciate Dusty broaching the topic and the input folks have regarding the incident at the M&G. It's good to have a little group reflection. I also really appreciate the ideas put forth on how to prevent these types of incidents in the future. I hope they will be implemented.

Regarding Generalizations:

Stereotypes and broad generalizations about other cultures will not be tolerated in the KOTR forums. It's completely unacceptable. The purpose of KOTR is not to discuss the social and cultural differences between Koreans and non-Koreans.

Regarding Racism:

Sean, I'm not sure where you got your statistic, "I would say it's probably less than 1 out of 20, that don't like foreigners, call is racism, or whatever". I think we can all agree that racism exists everywhere. This is not a sociology forum and we're not here to debate the percentage of racists within any society.

Regarding Personal Attacks:

Feel free to respectfully disagree with people, question their ideas, or counter their statements in the forums. However, name-calling and open attacks have no place on KOTR.

Representing KOTR:

I like to party as much as anyone, as I'm sure some of the long time KOTR members can attest to. I see no problems with enjoying some libations after a day of climbing. I can't think of anything I prefer more!

But the actions of a few reflect on the whole. They reflect on KOTR and the foreign climbing community.

Treating people with disrespect is wrong, no matter if they are Korean or not! In this situation, not only was the Korean family insulted, other members of KOTR were embarrassed by the event. I wasn't even there and I'm embarrassed. I would hate to have to explain these actions to my Korean climbing partners or my non-climbing Korean friends.

Furthermore, KOTR members have asked to have their accounts deleted based on the xenophobic comments in this thread alone! From reading this thread, it seems there are a number of members who won't be attending another M&G, either. I think it's being overlooked that foreign climbers were also insulted by what happened.

I would hope, if something like this were happening again, that other KOTR members would step in and diffuse the situation before it ever became a problem. What you do on your own time is up to you. I would hope that we could always follow Goulash's advice: "We are guests in this country and we should always act like it." But when we are representing KOTR and essentially the entire foreign climbing community, it becomes imperative that we be respectful to everyone around us.


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