KOTR Evolution

[panicked_bear]

Hello all,
This weekend we all had an awesome time in Seoul, a very solid Halloween indeed. During some of the festivities we came to a discussion about skills.
Many beginners once they get some experience under their belt start to get more and more excited about things like multi-pitching, and trad etc...(basically looking to get off the artificial walls and get out for more of an adventure) but many of the people that I have talked to feel that simply "learning while you are doing it" although an amazing way to learn it, can in fact be potentially dangerous.
Think for a moment of your first multi-pitch. You are 4 pitches up a vertical wall and the only way down is a series of relatively straightforward raps. But you have never rappelled before because you are a purely 1 pitch climber up until now. So, feeling a bit out of your depth, you continue on to the fifth pitch. While the leader is leading this one, a drop bear attacks them from the next ledge above and kills them, leaving their corpse twisting in the wind.
Now, out of your depth and with no idea what to do, you are the next meal for the drop bear, unless you can somehow get out of this situation. But you have no idea how to.


This is why, it is my contention that as we follow the evolution of KOTR as both a physical entity as well as an electronic one, we put our best foot forward to make resources available to those who would seek them. I have two proposals (and I am willing to put some work into them as well ;):

1- We start to build an online database of English (as well as Korean??) Instructional videos from things like knots, up to how to multipitch and place trad gear. For example, we get a video account on VIMEO and then we embed all of our videos on a "Training" forum here on KOTR (maybe create a "What you need to get started" Rock climbing guide).

2- Go to the community. I believe that KOTR should appoint regional "directors/gear jockeys/gurus/yogis/vegans/whatever" who have enough knowledge, gumption, grit, and dedication to the sport. The purpose of these people would be to arrange meetings of the people in their district on a smaller scale so that they would be able to have everything from climbing dates, to "skill nights", and also help to get the newbies in korea out on some rock with the goal of instruction.


Sometimes it can be a bit of a bummer to be a belay slave, or to have to haul a newbie up a multi with you (I wouldn't know being such a fresh peach myself), but what I do know is how much I appreciate the time that those people do spend with me showing me the important things about the sport. Not only does it help to build friendships, it also increases the number of people you can climb with!


Ok, that was way longer than I wanted it to be, and maybe some of the things aren't practical, but I would love to see something like this happen.

I'd also love to hear what you Kooks thing about it as well.

[skinsk]

When I get back, I'll be happy to take people on very easy multi-pitches, with emphasis on "very" and "easy" if I have to lead. That said, there are low bolts and even practice anchors at some crags. The ledges above the easy climbs at Kanhyon are good places to learn about anchors and rappelling. Rappeling set-ups can be shown and practiced on the ground. Before a multi-pitch, be sure everyone knows how to make a biner break (in case you drop your ATC:) Sure, it takes a little time to show someone everything, and it may take them a few tries (just as belaying and tying in probably did). . . and people who want to multi-pitch-- next time you're at the sport-park, even at an artificial wall, ask someone to show you how to set up a rap. Have someone at the anchors with you the first time before you go. . . granted, don't ask when someone is belaying, and don't expect someone to drop what they're doing to show you, but most climbers will be happy to help you out most of the time (and if they're not, ask someone else!). And before any multi-pitches, buy a helmet!! I've never seen a bear drop, but I've seen other things!

Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills is beautiful book, and is often referred to as the bible of mountaineering. It's got detailed information and diagrams and is regularly updated. Of course, I wouldn't want to depend on a book (or video) alone. . . you always want to go with an experienced person when you start out. That said, I cut my teeth with a group of friends all on the "learn as you go" program of bailing off peaks and swimming rapids. . . fortunately when it came to trad climbing I advanced under the wing of many excellent mentors and friends (and brother). . .

[supertopoz]

Sorry, but I don't mind teaching a few friends.

If you want to learn about climbing from a video or book then there is this great invention out these days, called? Wait a minute! Oh yes, "the internet." Now listen carefully if you are too lazy to visit google, or youtube then you is surely too lazy to learn safe climbing techniques.

Now there is the world famous concept called mountain guides. That is people who have dedicated their lives to doing what they love and teaching it to other people. Not surprisingly they are expensive to hire. For a very good reason, namely something called public liability.

In order to drive a car in England you need a car tax, to get a car tax you need to show an up to date MOT, a certificate to say your car is road worthy. With an MOT and insurance you can get a tax disk.

Folks do not under any circumstances, unless you are a certified guide, pimp yourself out as such. Want to know why? Well as generations of Mountain guides will tell you. If your client, student or whatever you want to call them dies, under your care, almost certainly you will have their relations breathing down your neck for a lot of money, and many horrible words to you. Not to mention the national park officers, police and so on.

Take it from me. If you want to learn multi-pitch climbing go to a certified mountain school. If you want to learn from the internet, then take with a pinch of salt what you see.

Climbing is dangerous. I mean really dangerous. Do it for fun, learn it for real. From a really well trained guide who if you die will be able to answer to your family.

I m rolling out the other side of this discussion. Please take what you like and dismiss that which you don't.

[skinsk]

Of course, if you are acting as a guide (i.e. taking money) you should have insurance. Going as partners, even in the case where one is more experienced and leading, there's no basis for a lawsuit.

The lack of frivolous lawsuits in Korea, as opposed to the USA (for example, if you're climbing on a public wall here and you make a mistake and get injured, you can't sue the wall!) means they can have public walls and allow climbing on many public lands (pretty much unless it endangers a natural or cultural area).

Nothing against proper classes, though never took one. I know many people who have and learned a lot from them. Others who were less impressed. There are good classes and bad classes, like everything, and alot depends on the teacher. However, for folks already in Korea, it might be better to learn from native speakers in your own language. Most climbing gyms offer a "climbing school" at least once a year, but it's conducted in Korea. Probably won't hurt (I assume someone would visually check you for anything that could lead to injury), but I'd rather learn from someone I can completely understand and ask questions of (I got my PADI cert from a Canadian in Boracay. . .for that reason) and whom I trust.

Climbing is dangerous. All the gear and books and mags warn as such! Seek out information from as many sources as you can! Visually inspect all setups do that they make sense to you (and ask!! a lot of Koreans just expect the leader to "take care of everything" but I want to see the set-up every time I'm being belayed, rappelling, clipping in. . . Examine (and read up on) how the gear works. Most set-ups (anchors, pullies, traverses) should make sense visually. . . if something looks questionable, ask. Better yet, before you leave, ask what will happen on each pitch. How you will know when to climb, how to signal for more/less rope and what you will do at the end of each pitch.

As I said last post, I learned from a lot of really top people-- from Jimmy Dunn, Alan Lester, Hank Caylor, Jane Sears, Steve Deikhoff, and many many more, all of whom took the time to show me what to do and then let me do it. . . I am thrilled to be able to pay it back, and have had some stellar moments belaying some KOTRers on their first leads, some just months after lending them shoes for their first ascent. I have introduced many people to climbing and so have friends, and will continue to. . .

That said, if I am going to show someone the ropes, I expect them to take it seriously, and I try to make sure they really understand something before we head up. I will admit to, in the past, being so anxious to try something I didn't make sure my partner was maybe 100%. . . but that's something I lived through and grew out of! Something to consider. . . both mentor and newbie have a lot to consider and should be clear about expertise and what is expected etc.

So, just more considerations. . . but all in all, worth it to climb!! Best way to gain experience, start on easy stuff and work your way up!! I'll be sure to bring the whole rack:becky:

[panicked_bear]

I agree with Skinsk and Supertopoz both. I agree that climbing is incredibly dangerous and thus is very important that people who would not otherwise (most likely) seek out professional guides to teach them the skills (and have to pay them for it!) would get the opportunity to see what they had researched on the internet put into practice. As we all know, for example, if you cross the wrong portion of the rope on a prussik, it wont work! What a better way to learn that than from your mates (instead of trying to guess what it is all about from a picture on the internet)

Its not impossible to teach and if it doesn't work, then both parties will know immediately (safely on the ground). Furthermore, if the learner is still keen or having trouble, then can then verify their information on the internet.

My above mentioned point was not that the locals here should be teaching certified courses, nor taking beginner climbers way out of their depth to make them competent 12c trad leaders. I was merely hoping to establish a base of resources for those who would seek them out when "the time was right" aka when their skill level had advanced to the point where they started asking the important questions about climbing safely above their current level.

Supertopoz, am I correct in assuming that when you say "unless you are a certified guide, do not pimp yourself out as such" that by extrapolation you should not offer ANY climbing advice to anyone else unless you are certified?

At what point would you draw the line - helping a friend tying a figure 8 is equally as potentially lethal as making sure they are tied into an anchor on pitch 7. I don't know if i agree with the logic of not sharing information. If you have the experience, in my opinion, thats what its all about.

[supertopoz]

So I have two experiences in mind. I also think two points are being addressed here as one. Which may need to be seperated.

First is generalization, "teaching newbies the ropes". In my mind I imagine three or four people learning about climbing safety from me. The other situation which I have no problem with is, "teaching a friend".

The whole reason that, that person is with me at the crag or on the mountain is because I like them and I trust them.

So teaching newbies the ropes, in my mind is a different kettle of fish to showing a friend a few safety tips. I have a broad heart, but there is not a sure way of telling if the person I am with has a broad understanding.

Let my guide the discussion back to my point. I feel and this is just an opinion, that a good way to learning climbing is from a certified association. That is not to say I am against learning something new from a friend. So as I mentioned I believe there is a difference between showing safety tips to a friend, compared with teaching a group of newbies. The difference is only an opinion. A friend is a person I know enough to trust, compared with some people I maybe meeting for the first time.

I would not hesitate to point a fool hardy behavior, and of course would go two miles with a stranger even if they only asked for a mile. The point I am making is that seasoned climbers know well the stupid games we can play. What I am getting at is it that the formal teaching of a group of newbies comes with it a different philosophy than cragging and climbing with a good friend whom you have chosen to take under your wing.

If you want to learning climbing then, like generations before me find someone you trust and start a good friendship with them. Going to the crag and asking some stranger, or someone you hardly know seems some what fool hardy to say the least.

Listen up folks if your teaching climbing, remember what you teaching may not be what is being learned. 10 minutes to teach a figure of eight, does not equal the figure of eight learned by the student. Give advice but lets be clear there can be a distance between what is said and what is heard. So I am saying build relationships and teach your friends. Newbies, make relationship and do as advised. Learn slowly, learn on easy ground, then learn it all again. Finally if you think you know it all. Go back to the beginning and learn again. Warm cragging days, are far different from being 21 hours without sleep in the freezing rain trying to remember how to safely back up you abseil.

[shanja]

Cool thread.
I DO agree there is both a philosophical difference and an underlying responsibility difference between helping out a friend (or two) and running a semi-formal class for strangers. Certified guides are a great resource, I have used them myself on several occaisions, though principally for the far more experience dependent and dangerous topics of mountaineering, avalanche awareness and rescue.
Just because you don't look stuff up on the internet doesn't make you lazy. Frankly, as there is even less accountability/ transparency/ trustworthiness of online info, so I think that suggesting people rely on internet searching is out-right dangerous. :eek8: I know Jason wasn't suggesting this as the sole method of learning, but if you are a newbie, maybe you don't know exactly what search parameters to add in, or what to call the skill you are looking for. Asking a "known" friend who has 1st hand knowledge of the skill and can understand just what it is that you are trying to learn can be a safe and valid way of learning.
Sonia is legally right here too. Unlike the western world Korea has very limited liability laws and this puts the emphasis back (where it should be) on personal responsibility. There is no need to worry about being sued/ harrassed by relatives/ thrown in jail etc AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT PROMOTING YOUR INSTRUCTION AS A COMMERCIAL VENTURE OR AS A CERTIFIED COURSE. Make it clear that you are merely offering your own experience as it is - not as a trained/ registered professional.
On KOTR we generally know each other well enough (on a regional basis at least) to know who is and isn't experienced enough to tell another person how to do something. BUT CLIMBING GUIDES CAN GIVE YOU A LEGALLY AND MAYBE PSYCHOLOGICALLY STRONGER SAFETY NET - THEY HAVE PASSED TESTS THEMSELVES. Language issues can be a problem here in Korea for these courses, but it need not stop you learning from a trained Korean instructor. A good instructor will be able to overcome this - it's their job, and communication skills to people of other languages was a core section in the NZ Mountain Guide Cert Courses (UIAA affiliated so I imagine the same here).
That said, if you are a newbie, make the effort to get to know the more experienced KOTRers in your area, ask them for some advice after you get to know them and can decide who you trust. Get hold of some instruction books/ videos by all means but hands on practice is 1000 times better than book learning, so try and find someone you can trust, communicate with and who has the time, inclination and patience to help you. The responsibility is ultimately YOURS, not a friends, not a guides.

[panicked_bear]

That said, if you are a newbie, make the effort to get to know the more experienced KOTRers in your area, ask them for some advice after you get to know them and can decide who you trust. Get hold of some instruction books/ videos by all means but hands on practice is 1000 times better than book learning, so try and find someone you can trust, communicate with and who has the time, inclination and patience to help you. The responsibility is ultimately YOURS, not a friends, not a guides.

This is basically the intended crux of my previous statement. All that I was hoping to accomplish would be that we had a core group of individuals that were placed around the country who had been "vetted" as having enough experience that they could vollunteer to have their contact info put up so that newbies in their area could get a hold of them (with the goal of ensuring that NOT JUST ANYONE would be offering up advice. The people would be long time climbers with heaps and heaps of experience)

[mil-mil]

Jake, werent we talking about doing something like this in your living room last month?

[skinsk]

I agree (I think. . .it was a lort of reading!!) with everything everyone said!

That said, don't assume your professional guide will be a good teacher (especially in Thailand, where if there is liscencing at all, it's the equlivalent of having an average Korean teaching you to drive (Mike, withhold comment here).

Use common sense (as always) going to the net for hints. Generally gear sites explain the uses (and limits) of their gear well, but just like looking up all the info and reading all about how to play piano. . . it's not the same as actually doing it! Ultimately, we all have to take responsibility for ourselves. Not sure from your ground practice how to rap?! Well, don't figure you'll learn when you get there! Be sure you know and understand what you need to know! (Another good reason for instruction in English!).

All that said, in Korea, it is not so uncommon to see large groups of newbies learning as they go (really-- I have seen this on Chinaurd B on Insu and many other places) . . . it's scary (especially if you're behind and below them!). . . and makes you wonder why people (some had literally been climbing once before-- and one guy was for the first time on rock!) don't at least start on the easiest routes.

Gear placement can be learned on the ground. "Students" can see how the gear works, how it fits, and well, this is the BEST place to show BAD placements. However, for things like complicated rescue set-ups, double rope placements etc, often a(n internet) diagram is useful to visualize the whole route and why double ropes may be preferred. . .

[shanja]

The more I think about Matt's ideas the more I like them...but only on the caveat, that as Jason rightly notes, we don't pimp ourselves beyond our real abilities to teach such life-saving skills.

Yeah, Mike, we did discuss this at home too. Mini-get together skill share days where we try and co-learn, co-instruct and cross-check each others beta on a skill. I think as long as we kept the grouping small, intimate and unofficial it would be a good way to disseminate skills SAFELY.

The idea of videos/ photos illustrating a point/ skill is also really nice. Especially if there is a space for other KOTRers to critique the skill/ lesson or method. An introductory pop-up warning on the thread, that "rock climbing is dangerous and that these vids are NOT an acceptable substitute to professional instruction blah blah blah, and that the content is not necessarily endorsed by KOTR etc and should be used only as an adjunct to proper instruction blah blah blah" might help balance the possible perception/ danger of them being taken as infallible gospel.

I guess, as I'm quite old and old-school about KOTR, that what I most like about KOTR (and as Jin-Hyuk from Ganhyeon's BOLT Rock club said in praise of KOTRers) is that KOTR is the essence of old-school climbing clubs. Loosely organized with a fairly democratic/ equalitarian modus operandi, and yet that by being intimate and small, we all DO look after each other amazingly well, without too much need of formalized structuring. We don't claim to be a Climbing School or offer courses - just a chance for those willing to use their nounce and patience. Information shared openly and open to correction/ critique is far better than information with-held or given as an unassailable maxim.

Jason is right that as we get bigger, the ability to self-monitor and self check each other gets weaker and the dangers bigger. The crux is how to ensure we share only quality info on skills and such. Misinformation and poor instruction lead to casualties and censure. So I think that by having regional reps or contacts could be useful as long as the people chosen were clear on their own limits of knowledge and that they made this clear to anyone asking advice of tem. Similarly, seekers of beta would have to accept that they do so at their own risk, and without liability to the advisor/ KOTR etc

As climbing isn't rocket science though, I don't see why some basic skills could not be passed along safely between consenting adult members. It really is over-kill to hire a UIAA guide to teach how to tie a figure 8 or how to belay safely on single pitch sport routes.

Where possible, ground based practice sessions are good (I've done these with guides and non-guides for crevasse rescue, belaying, rappeling, gear-placement, knot tying and glacier travel techniques). For the more complex tasks, a guide would be a definite advantage, but at least a little grounding in some areas by non-pros could be safe and useful back-ground until pro instruction (rather than instead of) could be had.

[supertopoz]

While the first guy to invent the wheel may have missed his chance at the patent office, the guy who invented fire was really out of luck.

There is some thing in Korea known as the Korean Alpine Federation. That is a head association which covers many aspect of climbing in Korea. It is a formal organization, has regional officials and many climbing teams and gyms are members.

Ladies and gentle as a suggestion, I found and I am sure others too, that climbing gyms all over Korea are in fact climbing clubs. People who have experience in the mountains and at climbing set up these clubs, mostly so they can enjoy their sport together.

I am not saying that the wheel is a safe and perfect invention. I am just mentioning that the wheel already excites. I hope I am not alone in mentioning that I am very welcome at the clubs I attend, also I can state the the language barrier for a long time actually made things friendly and comfortable.

It is a really great way to meet new people, particularly Koreans and to learn about climbing as well as travel cheaply and easily to some of the most beautiful places in Korea.

Before attaching a new wheel to a car that already has four, perhaps check out the wheels that all work really well. If you don't like what you see then lets invent our own wheel. hehehehhee!

[shanja]

Sorry but by that logic you'd be saying there should only be one club and we should all (consider at least) joining that. Nothing against Korean clubs. In fact as someone who has lived in Korea for 8 years and been a member of Korean climbing gyms/ clubs for 8 years too, I thoroughly recommend them to all ex-pats here. I am a member and I know many of the Korean clubs and members are much better climbers and more qualified than me or most KOTRers. But so what? That doesn't mean there is no good reason for a new or different club. KOTR (and Matts suggestion herein) is not pretending to be a training academy or even the same as a Korean Club/ Professional Guide Service etc.
Not all Korean climbers or clubs join the KAF....they even have a Corean Alpine Club (CAC) as a major alternative! Nor is KOTR strictly ex-pat members only (and we ARE working on making it bi-lingual - patience please everyone). Membership in one doesn't preclude you from membership in another club, and I know many KOTRers who are members of Korean clubs, clubs in their home country and KOTR as well. Each just offers a different angle and different scene. I tend to think that is healthy and if they over-lap in some respects, all the better to gain insight, understanding and a posibly wider range of inputs.
To be fair, I think most KOTRers should be (more) active with their local Korean club, but I can't see any reason why KOTR shouldn't exist or try and improve on what it offers to it's interested members (within the bounds of safe and honest practices as has been wisely pointed out already). It's not reinventing the wheel to offer an alternative club or a similar service in my humble opinion...nor is it wrong per se to try and help educate members without out-sourcing every single climbing lesson to commercial/ professional entities (UNLESS OF COURSE THERE IS A VERY REAL AND COMMONSENSE REASON/ TOPIC).

[shanja]

I'm taking this thread on a slightly different tangent, so bear with me.
Change and evolution always happen. KOTR started out as less than a dozen folk simply sharing info and beta about climbing areas in Korea. An early thread (worth the viewing!) was whether KOTR was actually a community or not...and the responses were quite varied:
http://www.koreaontherocks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333&highlight=community

What has really been brought home to me (as one of the few crusty old sods who's been here all the history of KOTR) is just how much KOTR has evolved and changed for good and bad and everything in between.

Talking with various Korean climber friends, I get a pretty mixed response these days to KOTR. In the old days it was more homogenous....along the lines of "Wow, we never knew foreigners here also climbed! It's good to meet you guys/ see you out climbing and liking Korean climbing experiences." etc

What I'm hearing more often these days is that; as KOTR has gotten bigger and more prominent; it may well also be contributing to a slightly strained or split climbing scene here. I think we all need to have both thick skin and an open-to-criticism attitude here. I love KOTR, you know I do. Personally I believe it offers a great and close "community" to many people, as well as a chance for us all to get into our climbing, easily and comfortably in a foreign country and culture.

But after some (often slightly uncomfortable) listening to others, I wonder whether we (all of us, me too, or even especially me) are not really, by accident, forming an exclusive little "club" (and KOTR was not set up as a "club" but as a beta exchange site - that is part of it's evolution) that actually is removing us now from our host country and it's local climbers....???:confused8

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying KOTR is bad, or has become racist etc, but I am aware that as KOTR gets bigger I seem to spend less time with my Korean climbing buddies and such, to whom I owe so so so much!

I know too that language and communication and safety issues (as a result of language) are real concerns and valid points....but perhaps the onus is, or should be, on us to LEARN KOREAN in Korea and try and learn from the locals about climbing, crags and so on. If you are only here for a year I realize this might seem unrealistic, but it's amazing how much you can pick up simply by hanging out with the locals and having a go at some basic stuff.

I guess what I want to see is that KOTRers all try (harder) to integrate with their local gym clubs and the local scene, so that we don't end up being "seen" as a westo-centric alternative that exists because we are too lazy to try and be part of the existant local culture, and think "all" locals incompetent or unsafe.

To this point, KOTR has been generally viewed in a really positive light, and I'm massively proud of the overall level of mutual respect and positiveness it has generated. Thanks to you all. Please feel free to comment, dispute or add to this in your usual open and groovy way.

[skinsk]

In 1998-2001 (pre-KOTR) I rarely saw another foreigner climbing. . . and when I did, it was generally a once-off (there was a French guy, Frederic, who climbed in my circle for 6 months). When I saw a foreigner, I generally talked to them, but my climbing team took precedence-- they were the people I climbed with daily. They were my core group of friends as well. They kick-started my Korean and whipped me into shape. I remember all the "stupid" training exercises. . . like hang-board pull ups with weights attached (and if you fell off, someone pushed you back on to finish your reps). . . they "held" me onto boulder problems and made me lead routes several grades higher than my redpointing. We did "laps" on the easy routes at Anyang Stadium, unclimbing on the downclimb. I frequently muttered under my breath about how "weird" etc these methods were, but whatever. I had people to climb with (and they did take care of me, despite my weird vegetarianism,my smoking--few women did publicly at that time, and my lack of Korean--which improved slightly after climbing when the soju came out). Fortunately, I only whined to myself (as no-one understood it) and then I noticed something-- in 8 months I went from a 10b climber to redpointing 11d. Hmmm. Maybe the Korean methods had something to them?

Back in Korea in 2005, KOTR on the radar, added something different. Not only did I meet people who could be persuaded to check out new places, but I could laugh and joke in English and I have made many incredible friends and had so many amazing adventures -- wow!

BOTH communities as well as the wider combined community have a lot to offer. Post-KOTR, I found most weekends spent with KOTR (but lots of Korean friends at the crags!!). During the week, however, the local Korean gym is the best (if not only) option for training. If you want to get strong-- join a Korean gym.

Everyone benefits from greater community. I assume most people who come to Korea want to learn from a new culture. The longer you're hear, I think, the more you see what Korea can teach you. And you (no matter what your level of climbing) can bring a new perspective to the Korean climbers that's healthier and happier than cragside grumbles. many things that seem strange can be put in to a wider context only if you take the opportunity to learn the culture (funny, though, I find many of my favorite KOTRers-- Jake, Ricky, Dee, etc are those well-connected to the Korean climbers:rolleyes8 ). Part of this is language (and each phrase/attempt will pay great dividends), or just opening hearts and minds to another culture.

As it is, both communities are here! And (I think, at least) as the guests, it is our responsibility to respect the "hosts". I mean, the Koreans did make these routes and walls and gyms we all love. For most KOTRers, Korea is providing the opportunities that brought us here. We have a choice to criticize, whine, complain, withdraw. . . or to reach out, try to understand, share our perspective (modeling, rather than "lecturing"!?) and thus, everyone benefits.

So sometimes I want a south-of-the-border Mexican feast with margaritas from the base, but you know what? sometimes some 돌솟비빔밥 and 동동주 really hits the spot.