Rep and Sustainability

[Les]

Carried on from the tail end of the meet and greet thread...

As has always been the case, we need to keep aware of how we are affecting the places we're climbing at and how we are representing ourselves. Bryan's ideas are an awesome way to ensure our group meetings are 'welcome.' Check out his suggestions on that thread.

Numbers inversely affect sustainability. I know how a korean climbing club marching up to a previously serene crag seems like approaching thunderclouds - the end to a quiet weekend. But I've never seen a korean club with more than 40 members at one place in one time. KOTR outings are now capable of these numbers. It allows for amazing exchange and community building among foreigners. We also need to consider how it will affect the experience of other local climbers and if the location can actually sustain it.

As an expanded and growing KOTR, our collective footprint grows. Accordingly, more is, and should be, expected of us. Towards this, perhaps a new sub-category in the forums for trips with an aspect of stewardship? That way it will be easier to draw attention and keep up with proposals. Easier also to self-evaluate - are we doing enough? We can't all re-bolt/anchor but we can donate/fundraise. Anybody can pick through a stream with a plastic bag, and that kind of thing would go miles if we were seen doing it together. A KOTR-sponsored outhouse at Seonunsan or Yeongso?
Lets!

(havent thrown in a socialist-minded thread for far too long...since halmae!? RIP)

[shanja]

Totally spot on Leslie (and ipso facto Bryan),
We do need to care how we are percieved and our impact on others climbing experience at the crags (and our impact on the environment!).
I remember we tried to get a toilet building project off the ground for Soksal-bawi once, and also for Yongseo Pokpo....but you know, the parks didn't want it at Soksal-bawi and not enough people committed to spending a weekend of work on toilet upgrading at Yongseo...:( Maybe this time we can though. We did manage to collect a good amount of cash for the snow-leopard fund, and we did buy more than 300,000w of bolts, hangers and anchors once before too.:becky:

Maybe at the M&G we can pass the hat around for a general "rep/ sustainability" KOTR fund and someone honest (not me!!) can hold the dosh until we can find an appropriate outlet to spend it. Then I'll try and make sure it gets published in the local climber/ mountain news that KOTR is doing it and wants to help the whole green and Korean climbing scene.

Meanwhiles, how easy would it be for all of us to simply do a line sweep (emu-parade) of the Ganhyeon crag/ river area picking up all the trash we saw between the two bridges or whatever?! It'd cost us a mere 20 minutes-30 minutes and be in full view of the locals.

Other ideas are buying locally, and taking ALL our trash away, rather than dumping it near the car-park. Translating menus/ signs for free (if you have that skill) for the small min-baks/ shops etc.

I'll try and ask the BOLT ROCK Climbing Club (Wonju) what we could do also. If we get a few small regional projects going (one at Ganhyeon, one at Surisan, one at Seonunsan, one at Yongseo Pokpo etc) we could make a huge positive impact. We could even make it a "National Clean a Crag Day" with simultaneous events going on....KMPL Shawn might be able to hook us up with some media coverage even?
Please don't let this idea die.

[bhylenski]

Jake and Les,

My wife and I have been apart of events like this in the states, Japan, Thailand, India, etc...but never in Korea. I know they exist and KOTR would be the perfect organization to get something going on a regular basis.

If KOTR would like someone to take the point, hold funds, organize events, etc. or simply just act as point person for ideas and detail gathering, count me in.

Eric, just introduced me to a few of his ideas and plans for his redesign, using Drupal, and I'll be lending him a hand with some of the coding. I think this type of thing, should play a major role in the new website, especially since Eric is hoping to offer it in Korean as well. Jake and Les, reply with a few ideas you have and I'll put something together in "Drupal's vocab" and talk to Eric about adding it to the new site. And see what he thinks.

As for me, I plan to be hear for a few years. I'm teaching sports science, again and starting a climbing program at the University I work at. My wife is teaching/choreographing and performing Modern Dance here in Daegu. AND We also really enjoy the community we live in. So, don't see ourselves leaving for a few years. Let me know what I can do to help. Feel free to PM with anything you may want to work on specifically.

I will not be at the meet and greet. My wife is doing a Yoga workshop in Seoul, so I'll be watching my daughter...I may come up for the day on Saturday...but it'll depend on who's going and if they can rotate watching her.

Look forward to hearing from you guys.

[willpower]

Amen, Bry, Les + Jake.

I'm one of many people eternally grateful to Eric for the friends I've met through kotr. Pebble pulling, hulking up some dirty trad or a lazy day lolluping up 5.8's in the sun its all been awesome.

The experiences really compliment the times spent climbing with Korean friends too. Ingrained in Korean climbing culture is an overwhelming benevolence towards foreigners, amazing generosity and openness. Two very different experiences at times but both equally valuable. Kotr is moving into an exciting new stage of existence. We've got the power.

However our Litter-picking, toilet building or bolt funding is going to be simply p*ssing into the wind unless we remember some basic crag/campsite etiquette.

They aren't pushed because they don't need to be but, with the wider fray of future climbers (non-climbing buddies) pitching up we shouldn't be afraid to mention something if the boundaries of common decency are close to being infringed.

1) Doing the MC-hammer powerboy stomp on a campsite picnic-table at 2am is really funny. Unless your trying to sleep in the tent next to said picnic table. Be loud away from people who are trying to sleep. (If you infringe on my sleep you can shovel poo the whole next day all you want - it isn't going to make it any better)

2) Fireworks + Drunkeness. A big no!

3) Say Hello. In korea you'll remain called 외국인 until you say hello. Then you'll be constantly amazed at who remembers your name.

4) Even if the rubbish isn't ours, it looks like ours. Pack it out. (I think were pretty good about this)

5) If you like to do stupid things when you drink. Don't go climbing. Have a Go-chu-jjang eating competition or try and make Ramyon come out of your nose instead.

6) Learn Korean. Massive props to the likes of Jake, Heidi and Alec. Everywhere you go everyone from Restaurant owners to fellow climbers knows them and has nothing but praise, they are foremost ambassadors and shape Korean perceptions of foreigners in the country. Biggup Respect.

7) We're all super-rad, open minded, free thinking, libertarian intellectuals, but if your mate's being an *** tell them. One person poo'ing on the campfire makes it stinky for everyone. Fact.

The idea of rolling meet and greet's are great. Possibly looking at something more city based would be great to help with damage limitation and keeping numbers at crags down. Daegu has a number of awesome town crags and a number of people willing to open up their floors as do Busan, Daejon, Gwanju and Seoul.

Maybe for the re-design we could split the up and coming trips sections into north and south east and west? Just cos' thats the way the crags seem to lie.

Sorry to be a self righteous-nazi, I know others would prefer if ethics are left unsaid, part of the beauty of KOTR is its autonomy but now seems like a prime time to take check.

ta, big love.

uw.

[dangerflower]

well said, everyone! some good points about various issues, as well as good ideas for solutions!

(btw, i would throw financial support in for a toilet at seonunsan for sure!^^ i'll ask around to see who we talk to for permission regarding that if peeps are interested... what do you think would be best? there are some nice solar-powered, self-composting models...or, maybe something that could be moved to a slightly different location from year to year...? let me know if you have any ideas!)

even if you just take a plastic bag in with you and pick up trash on the way in and out, it can make a big difference in the way the trails look...

however, it's awesome to hear some of the bigger and better ideas that people have. if kotr gets together to get involved in clean-up and representation and you join in...awesome. if you find out where there's a need and get to work on it with locals and invite kotr-ers to join you in your efforts...as least as awesome, if not awesomer!^^

willpower, did someone really poo on a campfire?^^ nasty...i hope that was just an expression...^^

[shanja]

Will, thanks for having the guts to say what needs saying so directly. We do all like to have a good time and we can all relate stories of locals being noisy/ drunken/ unsafe etc....but that is neither the point, nor constructive.

When I first thought/ heard about rolling M&Gs and so on it was absolute anathema to me:eek8: It stunk of the clique forming vississitudes that make other groups (Dave's ESL cafe, rockclimbing.com etc etc) so fractious and also unable to properly self-monitor. Yet, the reality is we are now too big to operate as before.

Meet and Greets are always more than just about climbing...they were from the very inception, meant as a social and networking event, with some climbing too (usually). This of course leads me to point out, that M&G's are not the weekend where you really want to be set on sending a new grade or working a project endlessly...those are worthy objectives, but best left for less crowded crag days. Chill out a little, set reasonable goals given the crowding and rights of everyone to get in some time.
If a route you really wanna do has a line up of 15 people (or shoes) then let it pass, and go have a chat with an old fiend, a new member or maybe run an impromptu lesson on knots, belay technique or yoga stretches. :p
DON'T GET IMPATIENT AND FRUSTRATED. And though I've been guilty of this in the past too, TRY REALLY HARD TO AVOID UTTERANCES (even in English) THAT ARE LIKELY TO BE TAKEN AMISS BY THE LOCALS. "Stupid Korean blah blah blah..." only hurts all of us ex-pats and makes us unwelcome - even if the point has validity (ie death triangles). And you know, you might think they don't understand English but they usually do. And what one foreigner says or does gets taken out on all of us, and often gets pointedly reported o those of us who speak Korean/ and known to the Korean community. It's embarrassing for me to have to apologize or explain away someone else's offense - especially as Koreans are used to a very structured social system and they therefore assume (maybe rightly too) that we have (should) have a 'chain of command' and that it's the senior long termers of KOTR who are also at fault for any untoward behaviour of the group.
You know me, I'm not a confrontational guy, and I hate being the "prudish old fart"/ "party pooper"/ "know it all" ...but like Will has said, we do need to be aware of how we come across. This isn't the USA, Wales, Oz or Canada. A crag (even at a M&G) is not a bar, not a privately rented space, nor a trashpit.
Now, I know 90% of us 99% of the time are all well intentioned and out-going folk. But to minimize any chance of negative impressions being made, we all have to yield a bit. So lets all camp at the far end and keep the boozing and yahoo-ing (well earned and with me amongst it I assure you) down there, and if a group of other Koreans is also there try and keep things quiet late at night.
At the crag, offer a few snacks or some fruit to random nearby Koreans. They do it to us so so so often! See a Korean do a good climb? Clap them, give them a 'thumbs up' and a smile. Learn how to say "Well done!" etc in Korean (Jal-hess-se-yo!) Tell them their English is great even if it's terrible. Take the time to be a friendly 'foreigner' and it will reward you ten-fold.
So, as Bryan has hinted and so on lets all try and be the ones who turn around the negativity and help Koreans escape from xenophobic forces that would try and have them believe we are a threat/ barabarians etc.

On Saturday night, after climbing, before dark and before dinner I'm gonna walk around with a trash bag picking up trash. I'll try and do the same thing Sunday morning before I go climbing (we will make a mess Sat night I'm sure but as long as we are seen to be cleaning it up expeditiously AND BEFORE CLIMBING no-one will resent it).

Sorry for the preaching, I just want everyone to love you!:p