Yet another dangerous korean habit

[gwalinor]

this is one i hadnt seen before.

How do you minimize rope drag on a crooked route?
You use long quickdraws.
What if you don't have long draws?
Make one with a sling.
No sling? 3 biners and 2 dogbones
You clip 2 drawa together, metal on metal. Brilliant.

What you dont do is clip 2 carabiners together, metal on metal.

[Eric]

Solution:
If you only have 2 quickdraws and you need to make a sling from them, remove 1 carabiner from one draw, clip the carabiner from the other draw into the empty loop of the draw you removed the biner from.

[skinsk]

You clip 2 drawa(sic) together, metal on metal. Brilliant. to be fair, I have seen this alot. . . in the USA. . . foreigners in Korea. . .many nationalities everywhere have done this. Just because you see a Korean doing something unsafe, it's a leap to korean(sic) habit. This is a great forum to ask for ideas and point out better and worse ways to do things, but watch the generalizations-- well, lets keep KOTR respectful! You say this is the first time you've seen this, and yet call it a "habit" . . . hmmm. . . be fair! Maybe the guy was sketched. . . pushing his limit and he did the quickest and easiest thing. . . who hasn't?

You are a teacher. When you see a student do something you disapprove of, what do you do? :suspiciou (I taught and climbed for years in the US. . . haven't seen anything here that I didn't see in the US. . . actually. . . saw a lot worse at home. . . at the places you've climbed!

That said, I agree that this is a potentially dangerous way to extend a draw (I wouldn't say metal on metal is bad, per se, because obviously I clip draws and slings into the wires on nuts when I trad climb and I clip metal bolt hangers with my biners when I sport climb. . . I've cliped metal pitons aid climbing and metal screws ice climbing!. . . quite often-- as in these cases-- it's the case that metal is best on metal, because metal can slice through webbing, cord, rope. . .aish!) When I need to extend a draw (to prevent rope drag, etc) I pretty much do what Eric suggests, but since I'm usually on the go, I don't bother to remove the extra biner (don't need to carry the extra weight anyway!) . . . Both biners should fit through at least one loop. . . on my Trango draws they even fit in the small end. . .

[gwalinor]

4 bolts clipped with double quickdraws constitutes a habit in my mind

[B-Team]

how about a korean climber exhibiting a bad habit rather than a korean habit?

[skinsk]

yeah! or even just "a climber. . ."

[sungkab Jo]

Hi!
This is a Korean climber.
There is potential danger with 2 karabiners together because lower karabiner makes upper karabiner’s gate open by spin of quickdarw. When you do sport climbing on many bolted route that habit is not very dangerous but during trad climbing you should not make it unless you make protections every 3m.
Um…. it is not easy work to explain my opinion in English.
Happy climbing!

[mil-mil]

it's unsafe because the force of the fall is graded on a rope hitting into the carabiner not another carabiner. metal on metal can snap. rope is soft and there for will not harm the carabiner during a fall. another carabiner hitting a carabiner has a high potential to bend if not break.

[skinsk]

falls are rated in weight units (kilos or pounds) of force (mass X acceleration)-- not what material makes the force. . . as mentioned earlier, bolts, hangers (which have a strength rating comparable to biners. . . but are much more suceptible to corrosion), the thin wires that hold chocks and small hexes. . . are all examples of metal designed to be clipped or linked to metal.

the danger in clipping carabiners together as described in the original post, is that the hard metal on one biner could push the gate open. . . (of course, it has happened that rope, particularly backclipped, has opened a gate and come out-- more frequent, but probably because backclipping is more frequent). . . caribiners designed for climbing hold over 20kN or more than 2000kg of force . . but if the gate opens and they disconnect or if the rope comes out, that doesn't really matter. thus, metal on metal with bent gate or wire gates would pose a slightly bigger danger. . . better not to, but backclipping, not wearing a helmet, taking break hands off the belay are all much more dangerous and result in many actual (as opposed to theoretical) accidents.

[shanja]

Actually I would say if you really had to clip two crabs together (admitting this is definitely not an ideal practice) you would probably be far better clipping wiregates together. The wires have MUCH GREATER tensile strength than solid gates (because they can stretch and bend without snapping, much like a dynamic rope versus a static rope) and are MUCH LESS prone to gate flutter. I don't think any offense to our Korean hosts was intended in the original post, we all make silly slips of the tongue/ keyboard. Let's just all try and avoid the unfortuneate foreigner habit (I've been guitly here too!) of unconsciously or unwarrantedly attaching "Korean" to criticisms.
The key point still stands nonetheless. IF IT IS A HABIT by anyone, it is dangerous.

[skinsk]

I guess what I meant was, since the danger in clipping biner to biner isn't one biner snapping (on a sport route, even cross-loaded!) nor is it the gate flutter letting the rope out (as would be the case with back-clipping) but rather the hard metal pushing the gate open (the same way a person does when clipping), wires open easily . . . no doubt they can be safer for normal sport use as the gates don't flutter.

Not extending draws on "crooked" routes, by the way, which occurs not infrequently, leads to way more injuries and rope issues!