Check, 1 - 2, check 1 - 2

[shanja]

Okey dokey folks, here's the new thread and a grim reminder of how a safe activity like indoor sport climbing can lead to disaster.
An un-named climber friend of ours was at Taejosan indoor wall last week when the worst happened. LET'S LEARN FROM THIS:
She was lead climbing and fell from about 12 m up. She hit the deck. She will be in hospital a month or so and a wheelchair long after. She is a good and experienced climber. BUT she didn't check her belayer. Her belayer, unfamiliar with a gri-gri had threaded it upside down and it failed. She fell, her belayer feels awful and she feels sore. Check each other everytime!

[skinsk]

Sending all the positive energy. . .

KOTReres are generally good about checking such things. . . I know I probably drive everyone crazy with my continuous: OK, I'm the break hand, you're the climber (I look at the diagrams on my gri-gri every time). . . but . . . anyway, prayers for your friend and thanks for the timely reminder.

Check knots, belays. . . work out communicative signals. . . it's easy to be so psyched to climb and it's super easy to feel "safe" sport-climbing, esp indoors. . . sometimes it feels weird to refuse a belay because you don't want to "hurt someone's feelings".

Having been on both sides of some serious evacuations and injuries, I no longer care about people's feelings. . . I daresay there are people on this site who've shown such poor judgement I would not climb with them and would rather not be around when they climb!

[normalcyispasse]

Goddammit, I wrote a fairly long response and then accidentally clicked the "back" button on my mouse.

Summary:

-Ouch. That's bad.
-I don't like gri-gris.
-I prefer ATCs (or 8s) because of their simplicity and idiot-proofiness.

[skinsk]

I prefer ATCs (or 8s) because of their simplicity and idiot-proofiness.

gri-gris generally fail when threaded wrong (or if someone pulls and holds the lever back!)-- the former easily checked. . . 8's and ATCs fail anytime someone's attention lapses, and I've witnessed this far more!!

Bottom line-- when you belay, pay attention; when you climb insist on a belayer who pays attention. Where's ShagyMB when you need him. . . or Miguel?! K-L and Shanja rock as belayers too! I belay attentively, but make sure I'm tied in or I fly!

[rgdc]

I'm with normalcyispasse grigris are bad. Not in themselves they are not, on their own there is nothing wrong with them its the belay habits they breed especially in climbers that start with the grigri. Seriously how many times have you been out climbing and watched a belayer take a hand off the brake end of the rope?"Oh its fine because I'm using a grigri" I see it EVERY time I go out climbing here.
Both Grigris and ATC's can be threaded wrong but ATC's are just easier to check (and yes they should be checked every climb). And they don't breed bad habits, you don't take your brake hand off the rope because you can't (at least in theory, I have seen that too. "grimace")
Moral of the story is most climbing accidents can be prevented. I'm not of the school that believes climbing should be dangerous to be fun.

I am really sorry for your friend and I hope she is on the road to a speedy recovery. I am sure we are all sending our well wishes.

[normalcyispasse]

It seems like the current trend is to teach people how to belay ONLY using a gri-gri, too.

There's also the bit that using a gri-gri can, in many cases, inspire laziness. Since it's an autobraking system, it's easy to get distracted; on TR, the climber can quickly climb ahead of the tension and then if they fall, there's a lot more fall to take. On an ATC, 8, or other plate-style belay device the belayer is constantly aware of the tension in the rope (well, discounting rope drag) and, even if he/she isn't watching the climber, he/she can still belay a safe amount of rope at any given moment.

[ricardo]

It seems like the current trend is to teach people how to belay ONLY using a gri-gri, too.
There's also the bit that using a gri-gri can, in many cases, inspire laziness.
i fully agree!

Since it's an autobraking system...
i know someone who decked their climber using a grigri. the rope zipped through and would not lock up.
the grigri is not an autobraking device!!
this is the key misunderstanding that leads to laziness.

on TR, the climber can quickly climb ahead of the tension and then if they fall, there's a lot more fall to take. On an ATC, 8, or other plate-style belay device the belayer is constantly aware of the tension in the rope (well, discounting rope drag) and, even if he/she isn't watching the climber, he/she can still belay a safe amount of rope at any given moment.
i disagree. this is an attention issue and can happen with any device.

[shanja]

Hey Ryan, thanks for he wishes, I'm sure she will appreciate them as she lies still in her hospital bed (she did "sneak" out for our gyms re-openning party a few weeks back). I guess that you said the key point I have tried to make before. Gri-gri's are fine, but they have the unfortuneate tendency, (especially in beginners) of creating a dangerously false sense of security. Nothing beats attentiveness and experience with any belay system though. Thanks also to Rick, Brandon and Sonia for their valid points too.

[skinsk]

Check, 1 - 2, check 1 - 2

I think you said it best here.

(Anyone who's climbed with me and my gri-gri know I have the annoying habit of saying: OK, I am the break hand and you are the climber. And then I show them so they can check against the diagram.)

This thread was quite awhile ago! I am sorry to hear your friend is still in the hospital! It must have been pretty serious! Hopefully nothing permanent.

[ricardo]

if you are climbing on a top rope and you're unsure if your partner has threaded the grigri correctly, just grab the rope between you and the anchor and pull down. you should see the device lock up.

[normalcyispasse]

if you are climbing on a top rope and you're unsure if your partner has threaded the grigri correctly, just grab the rope between you and the anchor and pull down. you should see the device lock up.

You should, assuming the autobraking mechanism is working correctly. ;)

[mil-mil]

im to stupid to figure out how to use a gri gri, so i will stick with my ATC:) .

Best wishes to your friend jake and i hope for a fast recovery.

[shanja]

Thanks Mike. I'll pass that along. She sustained a concussion, broken clavicle, compressed fracture of some vertebrae and most troubling for future climbing, a nasty break of the talus bone (I think that is right). Ask Sonia about how bad these breaks in the foot can be. Still she is strong, positive and has a supportive family and climbing circle.
No doubt she will keep using a gri-gri...it was human error at the end of the day. Like they say, the most unstable feature on any mountain is the climber!

[skinsk]

Ask Sonia about how bad these breaks in the foot can be

well, mine was a compound fracture of the talus (i.e. the bone was sticking out) and we were in a jungle 5 hours (no helicopters, tarzan) from a hospital. . . it was largely infection and complications that did me in! I certainly hope your friend fares better. . .though 2 weeks in a Korean hospital just about did me in! (The first two weeks in a Thai hospital was magical by comparison!). . .my heart goes out to her. On my side, I didn't deck-- just slammed a bulge on the way down, so nothing else was injured. And while a huge hold breaking set my fall in motion, my "very experienced" belayer with an ATC dropped me about 7 meters. . . oh how I wish it were a gri-gri!!

[climbergrrl]

i love using a gri-gri myself, however, i don't always like other people using them. having said that, if my belayer isn't bright enough to know how to use a gri-gri, i'd just as soon that they didn't use an ATC either, or even belay me at all...

but, even the best climbers can make mistakes, so let's all just keep on checking and double-checking (i'm the belayer, you're the climber, right j? wait...no! i'm the climber!:lol: ).

hope your friend gets well soon, jake!

[Ricky]

if my belayer isn't bright enough to know how to use a gri-gri, i'd just as soon that they didn't use an ATC either, or even belay me at all...

but, even the best climbers can make mistakes, so let's all just keep on checking and double-checking (i'm the belayer, you're the climber, right j? wait...no! i'm the climber!:lol: ).

hope your friend gets well soon, jake!


Word, yo!

[TLayne]

I've been climbing about 5 months. I was taught by some of KOTR's best. I've always thought of myself as a VERY safe belayer. I actually took pride in taking the joib of belayer. I would never take my eye of the climber, feeding out just the right amount of slack, always keeping my brake hand on the rope. But after time, I started to not always keep my eye on the climber. Anyways, I was using a gri-gri when the climber I was belaying fell from about 3 meters. When the climber fell I was talking to another person on the ground and DID NOT HAVE MY EYE ON THE CLIMBER. The rope zipped through my hand, I gripped the rope with my brake hand and luckily slowed his fall enough that the rope stretched to its max just as he hit the ground on his back. About 10 climbers witnessed this. I felt so terrible that I had made such a huge mistake. I had my brake hand on the rope! How could this have happened to me with my gri-gri! Well obviously I did something wrong and it could have turned out much worst. I know it was my brake hand that was at fault here but I would like to say, I think if you always keep your eye on the climber, you can see the moment they are going to fall and take the rope. I know sometimes you cant always see the climber but when you can I thinkl they should have 100% of your attention.

[shanja]

Woah, close call. But don't feel too bad...almost all belayers (me included) are guilty of this; talking and not paying 100% attention. You did at least have your hand on the brake strand all the time (more than many Gri-Gri users can say unfortunately). Glad no-one was seriously hurt (other than ego and confidence), and thanks for being honest and humble enough to share this with us all.:thumb:

[TLayne]

Woah, close call. But don't feel too bad...almost all belayers (me included) are guilty of this; talking and not paying 100% attention. You did at least have your hand on the brake strand all the time (more than many Gri-Gri users can say unfortunately). Glad no-one was seriously hurt (other than ego and confidence), and thanks for being honest and humble enough to share this with us all.:thumb:

No problem. That actually just happened last week in Thailand. Afterwards I sat down and watched how others were useing their gri-gris and guess what... I saw the same mistakes. One of which was, holding down the gate with the left hand waiting to feed out slack, sometimes while not even watching the climber. When that climber fell I was holding down the gate with my left hand (I always did that to keep the gri-gri strait and staedy). I turned my head away for a moment, and when I did, he fell. The rope zipped freely through. I dont want to make it sound so simple. It happened fast. One thing I do know is, had I been watching the climber, I would have seen him start to fall and would have let go with my left hand. But when I was caught off gaurd and the rope was suddenly ripping through my gri-gri my only reaction was to clench BOTH hands as tightly as possible. I learned my lesson from this. It's always different when it happens to you.

[lkiehn]

I'm the one who distracted you by talking to you! I'm so sorry!!

The climber was above the second bolt, but even so, you can have a ground fall from there depending on how the bolts are placed. He did have a soft fall though, he didn't slam to the ground.

Climbing can be scary sometimes -yesterday I watched a guy at O2 World fall, drop an ax, and completely sever the sheath of his rope. He sliced it clean off, only the white strands of the core were left!!

[shanja]

Please note that we found a few loose bolts (some I actually removed with my fingers!) at Ganhyeon over the weekend. Kinda scary...some were anchor bolts. So check carefully even at mega popular crags. Take some webbing, a spanner/ wrench and don't trust anything too much. Oft times you can back up a dodgy anchor - if you are prepared. The rapp quick-link gate things on many routes are getting worn (cut) through too. Think about buying a steel quick-link (3,000won) at a hardwear shop and putting that on the chains to rapp off. It's cheap insurance.

[CharlesCullen23]

I was climbing at an outdoor wall yesterday and had quite the scare. I was halfway up the wall on a fairly easy warm up lead when I just so happened to look down and see that my belayer had literally taken me off of belay! He was holding the ATC in his hand and fiddling around with the rope, trying to figure out what to do. Needless to say this was unnerving. He was able to get the device properly fixed again, but hanging out on an inverted wall with no catch was enough to scare the **** out me. I had even checked him before I started the route, double backed harness, locked biner, and everything was fine! It's hard giving someone who looks like they've been climbing a while the third degree in terms of questions of competency and safety checks-especially if your rather new yourself, but no amount of social discomfort is worth plummeting to the ground.

[Goulash]

It's hard giving someone who looks like they've been climbing a while the third degree in terms of questions of competency and safety checks-especially if your rather new yourself, but no amount of social discomfort is worth plummeting to the ground.

BLOODY OATH mate! If they have been climbing for a while, there is no excuse for doing something as dumb as that. I hope you had his guts for garters!

Even if it's their first time on belay, you'd think they'd have some idea that them being attached, somehow, to the rope is the only thing keeping you from plummeting to the ground!

Glad you walked away to tell about it.

[shanja]

Sadly the message still hasn't reached everyone...check each other EVERYTIME especially if you are with someone new to the sport or just using unfamiliar gear...it's not all the same. Over the weekend a few of us saw (to our horror) a novice climber sent up a route by more experienced companions without a real check. He did the route pretty damn well (to his good credit and congrats too by the way!), but as he was being lowered his harness started to unbuckle!:eek8:
I sh*t you not, the poor chap death-gripped the rope with both hands the whole way down and thus was saved. It could have been worse...much worse. The novice in question can't really be blamed here, as he'd previously done only one other route in an auto-double-backed harness...no-one thought to tell him the other harness was different, he could hardly be expected to know on his 1st day out. No-one checked his tie-in or harness.
This was a close call, but should never have happened. I just hope the guy (who shall remain nameless) wasn't too off put by this, as he seemed a really good bloke and showed some ability too.
On a happier note "punchy" (Greg) returned to the route that his accident happened on earlier (broken back) and put it to rest with aplomb and style, double thumbs up mate:thumb: :thumb: Too bad the nextdays hangover put you outta action, but was sweetly awesomely groovy to see you, Josh and 명은 out there - great 1st lead matey! Will, likewise nice one guv on that mis-labelled 5.10a (c/d) you onsighted!

[TLayne]

I just so happened to look down and see that my belayer had literally taken me off of belay!

OMFG! WTF! What a nightmare dude! How high up were you? Did you meet him on this site? It HAD TO BE his first time climbing! Either that or he is going to get someone killed. I'm going to just assume it was his first time climbing and he is just really really dumb not to tell anyone. Charlie i'm glad you're ok man. Imagine if you were about to fall when you noticed! If you met that person here could you PM their screen name. I just want a fair warning to stay clear. If that person did something as dumb as detaching himself from the rope while belaying, he is going to get someone killed if he continues to climb.

On a side note, to add a little saftey tip to the topic.

It's easy to get in the habbit off saying a climbing command after executing the motion. And for a lot of commands it's normal. For example, someone says "on belay", you check yourself and THEN say "belays on" Or "Take", you take the rope and then say "take" or "ok i got you". And this goes for a lot of commands.

One exception to this is the "Off Belay" command. When you hear "off belay", especially if you heard it loud and clear, or were anticipating it, it's easy to automatically take the person off belay, THEN yell "belays off" to let the climber know theyre off belay. No no no.

I was climbing this weekend with my partner (alec) when he told me about a near death accident that almost happened to him. He was at an anchor and hollered "TAKE". His partner thought he said "off belay". He was about to lean back when he noticed the rope wasn't attached to anything :eek8:

When it comes to taking your partner off belay, it's a command you repeat back and forth ATLEAST twice BEFORE executing the action.

[shanja]

OK so here's an update on climbing calls and communications (English) that partners should be aware of. I know a lot of us just get by with grunts, snorts, "yeah cool", "say what?" etc but this is as close to a standard list as I've seen, and checking with each other what each call means before leaving the deck is a grand idea. e.g.

"When I yell 'SAFE!' that means I'm at the anchor and clipped in safely with my daisy chain, so you can take me off belay...but check first by yelling back "'OFF BELAY?' OK? Then I'll confirm by yelling back OFF BELAY. Then and only then should you take me off belay. Got it?"
"Yeah got it. You SAFE! Me OFF BELAY? You OFF BELAY! Me take belay off."

Be aware of possible confusions...like "Jake" and "Take" for instance, or "Safe" and "Take" or "Tension" and "That's me"...or if there are a few teams each yelling out calls nearby, it can be confusing as to who said what, and to whom. Prefixing calls with a partners name helps a bit, e.g.
"Will! Slack!", "Heidi! Take!", "Alec! Watch me!" etc etc etc

http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/communication+climbing.html

[Les]

I had precisely the same horrifying (yet strangely, tranquil) experience as Alec, on a longish 4th pitch of a climb in China. My "TTTTAAAKKKKEEE!!!!" was interpreted as a "safe" by my belayer. She doled out slack rope by the arm-length, leaving me to peel out of the crack, do a slow-motion (least it felt it) tip back off the ledge below, and fall an ugly 13ish meters down the rock and into an outgrowing shrubby pine before the rope tightened up. Had she taken the rope out of the device like a typical off belay response, I'd now be a rusty stain in the yellow dirt of Yangshuo, a further 90 meters down.

Gross. Nice tip Layne and Jake. 'Secure' might sound more distinct than 'safe'. Especially above the din.

[TLayne]

'Secure' might sound more distinct than 'safe'. Especially above the din.

I thought "Off Belay" was the standard command to being taken off belay?

I'm a newb to climbing, especially multi-pitches, where these commands are probably more often used.
I would think an action as serious as being taken off belay would be one that is only done after a pacific command. Not just one you make up. Espescially if you're climbing with people other than you're usual partners. Again I dont know because i'm a newb and dont climb multi pitches where this command is used often.

[shanja]

Both make valid points, but climbing has evolved as it is, in a wil;d and chaotic manner. Standardized calls exist only in print and theory...even in Korea there are major variations as to what Koreans say...I doubt we'll ever get and enforce a universal vocabulary, thus its doubly important to check with each other before sailing off even a single pitch sport route.